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Ball joint flip and camber

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Ball joint flip and camber

Postby MrRevhead » Mon Sep 30, 2013 7:10 pm

Right so everyone does a ball joint flip with a 2" raise to regain suspension droop.
What does that do to camber?
Looking at the front suspension, to me a ball joint flip will decrease camber, possibly even tip it over into positive camber.
What do people do here? Where's the camber adjustment on the MUs? Do you shim the top arm retaining bracket?

Also, how do you tell how much your front is raised? Whats the gap between bump stop and lower meant to be?
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Re: Ball joint flip and camber

Postby geeves » Tue Oct 01, 2013 9:48 am

in a perfect world the gap between the arm and bump stops would be equal but I dont know if it was even made that way. Best way to measure your lift is to measure from the hub to the highest part of the guard. I can never remember which is positive or negative in camber but a ball joint flip effectively lengthens the top arm which you then add shims between its mount and the chassis to compensate. A lift has the opposite effect and at about 50mm lift you run out of shims without the ball joint flip.
Sanding your knuckles before starting work can help. That way you cant skin them
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Re: Ball joint flip and camber

Postby MrRevhead » Tue Oct 01, 2013 10:35 am

Sounds like I need to talk to my alignment guy then. Lengthening the top arm is not what I want. I have stuff all camber as it is.

Negative camber is top of wheel leaning in.

What I was getting at with the bumpstop measurement was trying to figure where I am compared to stock. Its higher than another MU I've seen in town.
I'm pretty much coming to the conclusion I don't need a ball joint flip
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Re: Ball joint flip and camber

Postby geeves » Tue Oct 01, 2013 10:50 am

if negative is top leaning in then a ball joint flip increases negative camber. The shims are behind the chassis so a flip increases available adjustment. On my bighorn a 50mm lift and ball joint flip still measured ok for camber afterwards
Sanding your knuckles before starting work can help. That way you cant skin them
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Re: Ball joint flip and camber

Postby MrRevhead » Tue Oct 01, 2013 11:04 am

Hmmm if I raise the top arm. That lengthens it. That will push the top joint out. That will push mine into positive camber as its sitting damn close to 0 camber.

The ball joint is below the pivot point. So raising it pushes it out.
I can't see how its possible to increase negative by flipping.
It will increase the amount a shim moves it though.

Where's the threads? Shims are dumb!
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Re: Ball joint flip and camber

Postby geeves » Tue Oct 01, 2013 12:16 pm

Adding shims increases negative. If you look at the top arm you will see 2 large bolts on top of the chassis. These bolt through the chassis into the mount for the arm which is behind the chassis. The shims are between these 2 parts.
Sanding your knuckles before starting work can help. That way you cant skin them
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Re: Ball joint flip and camber

Postby turnturn » Tue Oct 01, 2013 12:22 pm

I thought that raising the front (winding up the torsion bars, top arm swinging down) increased negative camber and the ball joint flip helped correct a bit of this.....or got it back to a position that it could be corrected with the addition or removal of shims as required.
Don't our vehicles have a small amount of positive camber (top leaning out) as standard?
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Re: Ball joint flip and camber

Postby MrRevhead » Tue Oct 01, 2013 12:32 pm

Yeah winding the bars up should increase negative camber.
My issues is I don't know how much or if mine has been raised in the front. I suspect it has.
If I raise my top arms I will be into positive camber. Everything I know about suspension and handling is against positive camber.
I should check the manual for the specs!
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Re: Ball joint flip and camber

Postby turnturn » Tue Oct 01, 2013 12:36 pm

In one of the manuals available from http://www.mediafire.com/?i36dwl1pkhb4g there is a measurement for between the bottom arm and the bumpstop (TF Rodeo info). I think that it something like 15 or 18mm. Please check this information though.

I hear what your saying about Negative camber, but it's not unusual for 4wds to have a bit of Positive.
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Re: Ball joint flip and camber

Postby isuzurob » Tue Oct 01, 2013 3:43 pm

im running a 2 3/4 suspension lift on my bighorn with ball joint flip and small top bump stops, between bump stop and chassis is around 35mm one side was perfect for wheel alginment other side had way to much positive camber but added shims and it was fine mine is set to 0 camber and drives mint
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Re: Ball joint flip and camber

Postby MrRevhead » Tue Oct 01, 2013 7:32 pm

Manual is proving very useful. Seems stock height is 15mm gap from lower arm to bump stop. I think mine's pretty close to that. Which explains why it looks like it will go positive if I flip the joints.


Not so sure my new rear springs are a 2" lift now! Looks like they may have just taken to a little over stock.
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Re: Ball joint flip and camber

Postby turnturn » Wed Oct 02, 2013 9:39 am

What was the factory camber setting?
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Re: Ball joint flip and camber

Postby geeves » Wed Oct 02, 2013 9:41 am

when I fitted new springs to my wagon they were a 50mm lift. Measuring the difference was just over 100mm such wwas the sag in the old springs
Sanding your knuckles before starting work can help. That way you cant skin them
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Re: Ball joint flip and camber

Postby MrRevhead » Wed Oct 02, 2013 9:49 am

Yeah mine was dragging its arse like a dog with an itchy bum.
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Re: Ball joint flip and camber

Postby MrRevhead » Wed Oct 09, 2013 5:00 pm

Ok to update this:

I set the front torsion bars so it was even all round. It was 15mm higher on the left front which tipped the right front down a bit and the right rear down a lot!
On 31x10.5x15 it was bang on 900mm at the guards all round from the ground using the centre of the hub as a mark.

I took it for an alignment check and at that height the camber was in spec, slightly towards the - from stock. Toe was twice what it should have been though.

So for anyone wanting to know stock height, or when you start needing the flip there's an indication
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Re: Ball joint flip and camber

Postby rettun » Tue Oct 29, 2013 12:40 pm

Anyone had any wof issues with a ball joint flip?
Anyone smashed a balljoint off after the flip? I Imagine 4 little bolts are alot weaker than the large one through the upper arm?

Also does anyone know the difference between the upper arms/balljoints with three bolts vs 4 bolts? Are the arms the same & different ball joints or are the arms also different?
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Re: Ball joint flip and camber

Postby isuzurob » Tue Oct 29, 2013 1:29 pm

yes can have wof issues if the wof man knows his isuzus, they can be certed though, the gen 1 arms=4bolt top arms are shorter than the gen2=3bolt top arms and wont work without alot of work and modifying, custom cv axles are needed, replace bottom a arm also, just not worth it, never broken the bolts on mine with them flipped, small top bump stops, lowered front diff and locker running 33 inch tyres
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Re: Ball joint flip and camber

Postby geeves » Tue Oct 29, 2013 1:53 pm

certain mechanics are going to cringe at the following put it does demonstrate how hard it is to break these bolts.
A certain Mu I used to know had an unknown lift and not only was there a ball joint flip but also it had been spaced by putting a between the arm and balljoint on each bolt. If you are already glad this vehicle is no longer on the road then also consider that when I first saw it these longer bolts were marked 4.8 I had the owner replace them with 10.9 rated bolts which is as close as you can get to the factory 9 stamp which mine have. The bolts were also bent.
There is a picture around of the same mu with previous owner with all 4 wheel in the air and at least a metre to the ground in the front.
Sanding your knuckles before starting work can help. That way you cant skin them
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Re: Ball joint flip and camber

Postby rettun » Tue Oct 29, 2013 4:15 pm

Ahh ok, that clarifys things. Thank you both, might be time to wind up the torsion bars and flip the joint. Will head out and buy some new bolts (10.9 ;)) for piece of mind however.

That Mu.... *shakes head*.... im all good for modifying stuff, but really, low rated bolts? :/
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Re: Ball joint flip and camber

Postby geeves » Wed Oct 30, 2013 2:07 pm

You wont need new bolts for a simple ball joint flip unless they are rusted or damaged. the only reason in my example above was that there was a spacer of sorts
Sanding your knuckles before starting work can help. That way you cant skin them
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