Electrical intermittent starting problem(Frontera MX/ 2001)

[FronteriaPete]

Hi there,
I have a Holden(Isuzu) MX 4WD Year of manufacture August 2001. I have a electrical intermittent starting problem. I spent 1000$ and they could not fix it!!! Other repairers do not want to touch it. To assist I need to use the OBD facility. Can any one suggest if the following is going to work with a 2001 MX 4WD..

http://www.amazon.com/Generic-Scanner-D ... c+frontera

My ECU is marked..
ISUZU 8122071590 DKCD
Manufactured by "Delphi Automotive Systems " United States. 3.2L AUT AUS
"Servive NO 09382587"

I do not want to change my ECU and find it was a simple wiring/connector/fuel pump/ etc intermittent.

I do not want to wait and find it does in correctly work with my vehicle. I am in the right place to ask this question!

Hope someone can assist. Regards. Peter.

[geeves]

Looks like it should work. What are the symptoms of its hard starting?
A thing to remember is that these things only tell you what they see not the cause. It might say sensor x high or sensor y low pressure. Its only telling you what the ecu thinks is the case. Senor y low pressure might be the pressure at y but it might be a faulty sensor it might be corrosion in the wiring it might be the ecu itself. Only way to tell is change a part and see if it gets better.

Why do we hear so many stories here suggesting that Aussi mechanics can only fix commadors and falcons?

[FronteriaPete]

Hi Alan details of problem… Sorry Video up side down!

The Youtube is a typical video of the problem. It is worse now- the video is a tolerable problem- but now has deteriorated and it taking three times as long to start now.

Referring to video…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rsAvJiI ... e=youtu.be

Going for start-> key in ->turn ignitions to start-> Computer cranks sever rotations, then shuts off starter motor-> note ignition is still turned ON for several second with no cranking of starter. Key OUT of Ignition.
Key in - ignition on-> turn to start-> nothing at all -> Back off key to off and remove key.

Back in-> turn key to start ->computer cranks engine for many seconds- no spark(assuming fuel) after long cranking -> key off-> remove key out.

Key back in to Start- nothing( no cranking at all this time) with key turned and kept on start- Key out.

Key back in - Key turned- this time computer cranks a few turns and then stops the cranking abruptly-key still on crank position- key back off- key removed.


Key back in and turned- this time it starts!!! And read the accelerator setting- sometimes it does not response to the accelerator position.

This is typical- there are other combinations when engine starts after a similar bizarre events and the engine does not respond to the accelerator. So I have to do the whole thing again.

Some times it just will not start. Typically I disconnect the battery negative connection for 30 seconds/ resetting the ECU computer- apparently loosing it memory of any problems the “had”- or “thinks it had”. Till recently this has worked and a good work around, but now this does not work every time. So far I just keep trying and similar combinations to above occur- but most typically just turn key to start and nothing. Eventually it will start- and I can drive home- but I am using the bus when ever I can !!!
Note Holden charged me 1100$ discounted to 1000$ to not fix the problem. I was not impressed.

They now want to replace the ECU, but they are not available any more! Because Fronteras are out of the 10 year parts service- they do not want to see me again... unless I want to change my oil etc.... So I am trying to source a ECU from a wrecker.

Speaking to non Frontera people/ friends - think replacing the ECU is the next logical step- nice if you have one on the shelf.


I am hoping the ODB “On Board Diagnostic” may give me a hint, the CHINA OBD I referred to previously is the next step in parallel with sourcing a ECU/ computer.

Any comments appreciate Alan! I have an excellent bus service fortunately. I can read the 2077 page manual on the bus !!!

regards,

Peter.

[geeves]

thats not nice. The OBD might help no promises though but at the price its not going to hurt much if it doesnt help. I would be leaning towards an ecu fault as well but I dont know the model
Querstions
Does the ecu control the starter? If it does its rare I would of been expecting it to turn over but nothing else
Does the throttle connect to the throttle body or ecu?
Have you tried disconecting battery then unpluging all conections to the ecu and pluging back in. This can clean the contacts
I trust all your battery connections are good?

[isuzurob]

We dont see my v6 trucks over here but by your video it seems more immobilizer issue, i would think it has a chip in the key and a key reader in the steering colum, has the key been wet??

[FronteriaPete]

Alan- Thanks for your advice.. reply to questions..
Q:Does the ecu control the starter? Reply- not sure- researching manual

Q:Does the throttle connect to the throttle body or ecu? Reply- not sure- researching manual
Q:Have you tried disconnecting battery then unplugging all connections to the ecu and plunging back in. This can clean the contacts-Reply-yes removed ECU - the seal looks to be working- nice and clean inside - re inserted and back to "normal- intermittent" May do this again.
Q: I trust all your battery connections are good? Reply- I think the Frontera has a very bad preset threshold where if the if the cranking voltage falls below 10 volts- the spark is turned off- very bad if you are in the desert.. Terminals are clean- and i keep charged up. Also have changed to a spare battery I have and intermittent still active.

Hi -Global Moderator- Immobilizer has been suggested- have changed to a spare key- I do have suspicions and will be checking manual if i can bypass the immobilizer when I figure out how.

Thanks you all your suggestions... I will continuing my reading / research. next ECU replacement and by pass immobilizer !!!
Comments/ suggestions welcome..Cheers... Peter.

[isuzurob]

Normally cant bypass the immobilizer as its a rolling key code the to immobilizer module everytime you turn the key on, good luck

[FronteriaPete]

Thanks for info on immobilizer - Now trying to match a ECU up.
Can any one suggest matching of numbers of ECU for a 3.3 L / 2001 Frontera .....
Mine installed ECU # is 8122071590 DKCD

I have found a wrecker with a ECU # 9873007491 DKCD

Can any one "judge with confidence " if this will work? The wrecker thinks the transmission electronics is included in the ECU, bust suspects they are different.

Hope some one can advise!

Cheers, Peter.

[geeves]

Ive got 3 overseas forums that might know more than we do. Hope this helps
http://www.muddyfrontera.co.uk/muddies/ ... ntera.html
http://www.fronteraowners.co.uk/
http://www.offroad-frontera.com/
This last one is in Czech so open in chrome or via google translate

[FronteriaPete]

Hi all- Thanks to Mr Geeves I have a great manual for a Fronteria UE 1999/2000/2001. I am interested in the OBD (On Board Diagnostics) connector C-34 “pin out” for a Fronteria MX 2001August. There is a significant difference between the pin out of the OBD connector between UE and MX ( you would think they would keep it the same, they would have a good reason… to change .)..
Extract from UE manual...
""Flashing Code A DTC flashcode can be displayed by the power train module (PCM) by shorting terminals 6 to 4 or 5 (Ground) of Data Line Connector (DLC) located right side of the drivers side instrument panel"

On the MX vehicle Pin 6 is not connected.

Can anyone can offer any suggestions. I have produced a pin out of Frontera MX Data Line Connector measuring ignition off voltages and resistances to Ground , and then voltages of connected pins with ignition on. I will try pulling pins to ground via a 250 ohms , so with 5Volt line max current will be 20 mA, safe....Any high 10V/ 12V will use a 500 ohm to keep the safe 20 mA philosophy.
Back to work…suggestions / info appreciated…
Cheers Peter.

[FronteriaPete]

Post Script to previous post.
I have now attempted to activate manual Flashing Codes.
Pin 12 (Yellow/ Black measures 4.5 Volts)- pulled low with 250 ohms results in the ABS light flashing out one ..space… two flashes = 12. This means all is ok with ABS.

Pin 13 (Grey measures 10.7 Volts ) – pulled down with 470 ohms in the Air Bag light flashing out one.. space… two flashes = 12. This means all is ok with Air Bag .

Pulling other pins low did not activate the CHECK ENGINE light- It just flashes very rapidly.
We still assume the ECU is very damaged and too sick to flash out trouble codes?
A replacement is on its way.
Peter.

[FronteriaPete]

For the record. Wrecker ECU arrived. Of course this needs to be coded with the Immobilizer. I can not do this so I sent it back to dealer. I got the vehicle started/ going, and drove to dealer, and then of course the vehicle would not fault, it would start all the time !!!! So have it back home waiting for it to misbehave again- this is now six weeks ! An it has been so unreliable I could not drive it. Plan now is to get it to fail, and hopefully get if started and drive to the dealer with out dis connecting the battery- so they can put the On Board Diagnostic analyser on to read the error codes. Previous to get the vehicle going I have had to di-connect the battery- this clears the fault memory, but I can start the vehicle. So now waiting for the intermittent fault to re occur. The immobiliser is suspected at this time.

PS- I tried a
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/OBD-OBD2-Tec ... 1346868797

But can not get it to work. Notice the baud rate is 10700( about this) and lap top will only do 9700 and 14400 and not 10700 !!! Will not interface. The software is not advance as I thought it would/ should be. Of course no manual- and limited info on web.

[geeves]

10700 baud???????
what a weird setting
Is that from a menu screen or a speed test?
If speed test send it back. If menu ask the supplier how you are meant to interface to anything else

[FronteriaPete]

For the record. After six weeks of vehicle not working, it suddenly began to work again. It then ran reliably for weeks. Then it began to misbehaved again, but could not get it to the dealer to read the fault code since I had to reset the computer/ battery loosing the fault record to get it to run. Eventually I got a start failure and managed to get it to the dealer to read the fault code stored in computer; and as suspected fault code "incorrect immobilizer code". So a immobilizer is next recommended to be replaced, so I am now searching for a immobilizer, and of course vehicles of the same year have different immobilizers- of course immobilizers are no available new any more- so wrecker searching ... Oh great !

[geeves]

A while ago I read a report on fitting a Ecotech Holden V6 into a Pajero (I know waste of a good motor) but they had the same problem as that ecu is tied to the key which contains the code for the immobiliser. Computer guru sat down and worked out the code that had to be sent to ecu so then a strike on a keyboard at the same time as turning the key would start the engine. Then it was just a matter of makeing up a little code sender

[FronteriaPete]

Hi Alan, sorry for delay, read this last week.Thanks for info. Yes I have learnt a lot about immobilisers.
For the record- I have a network of Auto Electricians/ immobilizer re programmers and Dealer /Service all lined up to put in net immobiliser. I found a immobiliser at a wrecker, but problems. The VIN is required from the donor vehicle , but the donor VIN is not in the General Motors date base. The Auto electrician said it will not work unless it is a valid VIN. On closer investigations, there seems to be a error with the last six digits of the VIN of the donor vehicle. The Holden Service just want me to wreck the vehicle. I have asked the wrecker for the "Module" part numbers, but it is in the vehicle and he may get around to "pulling the Module" to read the part numbers. The auto electrician said unless all is perfect it will not work...It seems the ECU has the rolling code in it's memory, so it is almost impossible to bypass- or indeed may be impossible to by pass. My research continues ! My vehicle is working reliable at the moment- but immobiliser fault can reccure at any time...

[geeves]

A random thought and not that cheap but the proper way is costing a fortune as well. What about an aftermarket ecu like Lynx or megasquirt? You also get to play with settings for more power

[FronteriaPete]

Hi,
Just to let interested reader know how things have paned out- the intermittent fault has now cleared-for now- and the vehicle is working well. OK for driving around the city, but no good for serious remote operation. Although as I eluded to above I can clear the fault allowing the vehicle to start by resetting the computer by dis connecting the battery for at least 30 seconds if it re occurs. So I will wait for fault to re occur so I can tackle the fault. Don’t really want to sell- I like the vehicle !
Peter.

[FronteriaPete]

Closure.
This is to provide the interested readers the - final diagnostics.

This problem re occurred and the vehicle would not start at all, with erratic cranking behavior .
Vehicle was towed to the dealer; for another two week problem solving( now hiring a small car)- and they could not find anything wrong. The problem had cleared again. The Computer records an immobilizer fault recorded in memory.

The dealer wanted to replace the whole immobilizer system ( several 1000$'s in total).
After talking to a few auto electricians , I put it into a auto electrician that was recommended and had experienced in such matters.

Final diagnostic, the key barrel has a contactor that was faulty and intermittent. The computer reads this as a immobilizer fault , so the dealer though it is a intermittent immobilizer. I was amused the auto electrician diagnosed it in one minute , and re created the fault "on call" with rough key insertion.

After a few years the finals diagnostic
**The key barrel contactor intermittent . Repair replace with a second hand barrel 210$. Problem finally fixed- and people can rely on me again and I get to keep my Frontera!

Lesson Learnt. Well I know the dealers just do oil / plugs etcetera. My friend who's was a X RAA mechanic said you will notice the dealer mechanics are young and will not / and can not perform detailed diagnostics. He encouraged me to go to a older auto electrician, who came recommend by a agent of vehicle computer systems.

I have now been going bush again.

Hope this helps some one !
Cheers,

Peter.

[geeves]

it esspecially doesnt help when its over 5 years old and doesnt say comadoor on the side. That seems to be all the Aussi franchise dealers ever get to work on and everything else shoved out the door as quick as possible
You are right the modern mechanic asks the computer what is wrong and believes the result.
Its not just cars It happens everywhere as general education has become more focused on measurables than common sense.